Rocket Propelled Jumping: Defeats Purpose of Jetpack

Posts relating to the currently in development and sure to be released 1.5 patch.

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sklr333
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Rocket Propelled Jumping: Defeats Purpose of Jetpack

Post by sklr333 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:38 am

I fell like the excessive use of rocket jumping to move around the map has been rather disheartening since movement with the meccs has been supposed to be reliant on the jet pack. Though the original game made this rocket jumping possible, it has become rather difficult for new players (me included) to learn how to compete with those who spam rocket jumping to avoid projectiles without using fuel and using the shield instead. This trend has also made the jet pack upgrade virtually useless since rocket jumping combined with shield use is a superior play style in all mecc vs mecc battles. I will admit that it is rather fun to abuse explosives like mines and the rocket launcher to launch extremely large distances but I also feel that this was not how the developers intended for the game to be played. Increasing the damage sustained by one's own explosives may be a solution to the problem since it would discourage excessive rocket jumping and be more welcoming to new players which are desperately needed in our dying community. I have many friends interested in the game but they agree that the "meta" use of rocket jumping is somewhat of a deterrent to new players. Sure, this does increase the skill cap for experienced players since rocket jumping is so integral to their play style. However, I can't help but feel that it is a problem because it simply makes no since to shoot a rocket at your feet for the purpose of launching yourself long distances since, after all, rockets are not a tool for transportation, they are a weapon. know this may be a controversial opinion, so I would appreciate some peaceful argumentation as to why or why not such measures should be taken to eliminate or at least somewhat deter the overuse of rocket jumping in the upcoming patch 1.5. For others who feel the same way, I would appreciate suggestions on how we can make rocket jumping less prevalent in combat and thus improve the overall balancing of multiplayer games. If there is simply nothing that can be done to fix the issue, I will have no more complaints, but I hope that others feel the same way and are willing to encourage the developers of the following patch 1.5 to implement some way to make the game more welcoming to inexperienced players such as myself.

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Reventon134
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Re: Rocket Propelled Jumping: Defeats Purpose of Jetpack

Post by Reventon134 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:30 pm

This is quite a chunk of text so let me address it in subsequent points.

1) Patch 1.5 and its development: As much as it hurts to say, truth is 1.5 will basically never happen. The main patch developer, Tasiin (aka Tos/Tas), has stopped the work on the patch long ago. He just moved on from Giants and focused on his life, although he kept hosting the global server, the GWD server and joined the Discord if there were any problems, for which I am grateful and I tip my hat to the man. 1.497 is the standard now and it's unlikely to change in the future, up until the game eventually dies. 1.498 is a thing but it doesn't address rocket jumping whatsoever, moreso focusing on the amount of damage dealt by weapons or spell cooldown times with regards to balance as a whole + it has never left beta and it has no sense "releasing" it now, it'll just create more confusion with the current patch.

We stick to 1.497 and try to balance our games as much as we can, tailoring our playstyle to whomever we face on the server. For instance: let's say someone new wants to play as Kabuto - what we do is switch to weaker weapons, avoid hitting the weak spot, sometimes even letting the player get us on purpose, all the while talking to them on how they can improve, giving advice and tips, etc. We don't have to do that but we do anyway because we want everyone to have fun, whether they are pros or completely new to Giants. But everything has a limit, which brings me to point 2.

2) Skill gap: It exists, it's huge and there isn't much we can do about it. I've been playing multi since 2009/10, the main team has similar or even bigger experience with Giants. As I mentioned, we try to balance it out for other people by altering our playstyles but it's never going to be 100% fair for people with little to no previous experience. The skill gap is enormous and our efforts barely narrow it down. New players have to deal with that, unfortunately. Some of them quit because of it, while others want to be trained and become better (and they achieve amazing results in short time).

3) Rocket jumping mechanic: I honestly don't know what your problem with it is. Personally I think it's great players use this technique in MvM, makes it a lot more interesting, same goes for blocking proxies with mines too. Shielding is amazing because instead of being straight up dead after 4 missile hits, the fight goes on for much longer and is that much more fascinating to do or watch. Jetpacking was also a big thing in the past but the shield is undeniably superior to it. It renders the jetpack upgrade useless in serious MvM combat but that's true for every other jetpack too. Those come in handy during 3Way, personally I rarely see myself using the shield there.

"since movement with the meccs has been supposed to be reliant on the jet pack" - so what, should we abandon rocket/nade jumps in the name of some sort of purity? Should we remove the shield pack from the shop (it was added by the devs for some reason)? Btw sorry but I didn't make out from your post if you know this, so I'll just say now: rocket/nade jumping also comes with a bit of fuel + the fuel acts as "shield energy" - when you absorb the damage using your shield, you lose some fuel, proportionally to the damage absorbed. When you run out of fuel, better act fast or you're dead (rocket jump away would be nice here huh).

"I will admit that it is rather fun to abuse explosives like mines and the rocket launcher to launch extremely large distances but I also feel that this was not how the developers intended for the game to be played." - wow abuse is a strong word. This is just what players discovered and it became a popular technique. Should they stop doing that and worry about what Nick Bruty might think? I mean you're free to do whatever you want, if you don't want to rocket jump then fine but why would you like to impose that on everyone? Have you ever played Quake - rocket jumping is essential if you want to become good. Strafe jumping was a bug at first but it wasn't patched coz they saw it gave you a super fast way of moving around, it became an integral part of the game. Should the players refrain from strafing and slowly bunny hop everywhere for some kind of greater good? Like seriously man, I don't want to sound hostile or anything but it's quite a weird issue you have with an interesting technique that you can learn and use too.

We are welcoming to new players in all ways possible, rocket jumping is just one of the things we teach them because it's an essential part of gameplay. Never have I heard or pondered about rocket jumping being an issue for anyone. I don't know where you and your friends come from, this "problem" makes no sense to me and "fixing" it the way you propose won't yield your desired results. Banning or punishing rocket jumping by inflicting self damage is just a bad way of trying to reach balance. On the other hand, if you decide to learn how to jump around using grenades, rockets and mines - be my guest, I'm willing to teach you anything you want (now that's a good way to get balance). Last but not least, if some people aren't willing to put some effort in, then maybe they are better off not staying here. We approach everyone with kindness and good intentions, if you only have a tiny bit of motivation and are willing to learn from us, you'll become a skilled player quickly. Sure, the game is dying but it has been dying for over 10 years. The community is not as desperate as to bend the rules for those 4 people in the world who don't like rocket jumping in Giants.

"However, I can't help but feel that it is a problem because it simply makes no since to shoot a rocket at your feet for the purpose of launching yourself long distances since, after all, rockets are not a tool for transportation, they are a weapon." - oh gimme a break xD This is called innovation.

All in all, I just hope I didn't sound angry/mean/whatever but the issue you're trying to present here is not an issue at all. There are much greater problems regarding the current Giants community that we have to face. Thanks for your input but I'd like you to think about what I now said and ask yourself whether rocket jumping is so bad after all. And sorry for the wall of text, I just went on a rant here but wanted to explain everything in needed detail.

sklr333
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Re: Rocket Propelled Jumping: Defeats Purpose of Jetpack

Post by sklr333 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:59 pm

This is exactly what I intended to hear from others regarding the topic, and I am glad you responded. If no one else sees it as an issue, then it is not an issue.

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Salazar
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Re: Rocket Propelled Jumping: Defeats Purpose of Jetpack

Post by Salazar » Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:48 am

I still faithfully use the Jetpack. Never grew accustomed to the Shield because it involves a lot of moving around the same spot and I enjoy flying around rapidly.

That being said, I don't know why you're opposed to using the Rocket as a means to fly higher and faster. If it wasn't meant to be that way, Friendly Fire would just kill you upon trying to blast off.

In Singleplayer, using the rocket/RPG to fly faster/higher is definitely a means to make the game go by faster. You can tell by the Ripper mission in the Codpiece Hills. You are given the Jetpack boost in order to reach the higher hilltops, but even without it, you can reach it via shooting the ground and flying up. Similarly, on the world where Reg is being held captive, you're not necessarily meant to fly over the hills to take on the Sea Reapermen, that's why there are three dips where you can exit and enter that little region of the world. Same goes for the portion where you cross via drawbridge. By rocketing yourself up onto the hilltops, you can easily clear the mission without having to fight any Sea Reapermen.

That all being said, Multiplayer is very different from Singleplayer. The game is almost 20 years old, so people have figured out new and interesting ways to play. Shooting the ground to fly is one of them.

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